FROM THE KORAN ITSELF...

[LanDroid]

[travelinman]

You may already know about this one: O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. [al-Ma'idah 5:51.11]

But did you know that there are 123 verses in the Quran concerning fighting and killing for the cause of Allah? Here are but a few passages:

-Muslims are encouraged to be wholly occupied (Sura 2:273) with fighting for Allah's cause.

- Allah will give "a far richer recompense to those who fight for him" (Sura 4:96).

- Regarding infidels (unbelievers), they are the Muslim's "inveterate enemies" (Sura 4:101). Muslims are to "arrest them, besiege them and lie in ambush everywhere" (Sura 9:5) for them. They are to "seize them and put them to death wherever you find them, kill them wherever you find them, seek out the enemies of Islam relentlessly" (Sura 4:90). "Fight them until Islam reigns supreme" (Sura 2:193). "Cut off their heads, and cut off the tips of their fingers" (Sura 8:12).

- If a Muslim does not go to war, Allah will kill him (Sura 9:39). He is to be told, "the heat of war is fierce, but more fierce is the heat of Hell-fire" (Sura 9:81).

- A Muslim must "fight for the cause of Allah with the devotion due to him" (Sura 22:78)

- Muslims must make war on the infidels (unbelievers) who live around them (Sura 9:123).

- Muslims are to be "ruthless to unbelievers" (Sura 48:29).

- A Muslim should "enjoy the good things" he has gained by fighting (Sura 8:69).

- A Muslim can kill any person he wishes if it be a "just cause" (Sura 6:152).

- Allah loves those who "fight for his cause" (Sura 61:3).
Anyone who fights against Allah or renounces Islam in favor of another religion shall be "put to death or crucified or have their hands and feet cut off alternative sides" (Sura 5:34).

- Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him. Sahih Al-Bukhari (9:57)

- Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush. (Koran 9:5)

- Take him and fetter him and expose him to hell fire. (Koran 69:30-37)

- I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them. (Koran 8:12)

- They should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides. (Koran 5:33)

- Know that paradise is under the shades of swords. Sahih al-Bukhari Vol 4 p55

[Emperor Napoleon]

The Crusades didn't last long enough or go far enough.

[travelinman]

Originally posted by LanDroid:
[QB][/QB]

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I know I have explained this to you already, but you still live in your own world.

Yes the OLD testament is much like the Koran when it comes to violence, but if you understand anything about Christianity, then you know that the OLD testament no longer applies.

But liberals do like to delude themselves, don't they.

[LanDroid]

What a ridiculous statement. If the Old Testament is irrelevant, why do Christians seek to display the Ten Commandments in public schools and courtrooms? Why do they quote Leviticus and other sections of the Old Testament to claim God hates homosexuality? Why do Christians take comfort and inspiration from the Psalms if they are no longer applicable? Why do they track the prophecies in Isaiah and many other sections of the Old Testament? Why do they use the creation myths in Genesis to stifle the teaching of evolution?

Do Christians read the Old Testament merely as history and literature like academics? No, since God's Love and Wisdom are eternal, Christians read the Old Testament as the Word of God.

Do Christians claim that Judaism is no longer relevant? Some fundamentalists do, but most Christians have a deep respect for Judaism. It would be very strange if they did not since Jesus was a Jew who did not come to destroy the Law.

[travelinman]

Originally posted by LanDroid:
What a ridiculous statement. If the Old Testament is irrelevant, why do Christians seek to display the Ten Commandments in public schools and courtrooms? Why do they quote Leviticus and other sections of the Old Testament to claim God hates homosexuality? Why do Christians take comfort and inspiration from the Psalms if they are no longer applicable? Why do they track the prophecies in Isaiah and many other sections of the Old Testament? Why do they use the creation myths in Genesis to stifle the teaching of evolution?

Do Christians read the Old Testament merely as history and literature like academics? No, since God's Love and Wisdom are eternal, Christians read the Old Testament as the Word of God.

Do Christians claim that Judaism is no longer relevant? Some fundamentalists do, but most Christians have a deep respect for Judaism. It would be very strange if they did not since Jesus was a Jew who did not come to destroy the Law.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I can't speak for anyone but myself, but it is my understanding that the new testement says that once Jesus died he fulfilled the old testament and we are no longer held to those laws.

Does this mean the ten commandments are not something we should aspire to? Of course not.

Does this mean we should not have respect for Judaism? Of course not.

As far as the "myths in Genesis" and other parables, anyone who takes any spiritual writing at face value needs a reality check.

Lets look at what Luke 24:44-49 says:
"And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things. And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high."

<font color="#000002" size="1">[ May 14, 2004 07:55 AM: Message edited by: travelinman ]</font>

[Emperor Napoleon]

I have always been rather fond of The Song of Solomon.

[LanDroid]

"...it is my understanding that the new testement says that once Jesus died he fulfilled the old testament and we are no longer held to those laws."

I don't think there is any such statement in the New Testament.

The New Testament does support slavery so at least we don't have to fret about God's support for that peculiar institution.

[Lew]

Trav- I'll grant you that the Koran, at least as it has been explained to me (I do not and will not claim to be an expert on it by any means) does implicate violence and war much more than tolerance and forgiveness.

That said...

In deference to Lan's position, the Klan goes around calling themselves "Christians." So does the godhatesfags crew out in Tulsa. All religions have their moderate believers as well as their radicals.

Granted, the Klan doesn't go around flying airplanes into buildings (I don't know where Timothy McVeigh fits into this, if at all). But I would be more inclined to pass judgment on the bad guys themselves, and not blanket the entire religion. I had several Islamic friends in high school and college, I wouldn't worry about them for a moment.

I said I wouldn't pass judgement on their religion, but that doesn't mean we should let up in doing what has to be done. In other words, if the bad guys are holed-up in a mosque, I have no problem destroying to mosque (for purposes of destroying the bad guys, obviously).